Divide Between ELPD, Police Oversight Commission on Display at March Meeting

Since shortly after the East Lansing Independent Police Oversight Commission (ELIPOC) was formed in 2021, the presence of a rift between ELIPOC members and the police department they oversee has been evident.

ELPD and ELIPOC have had disagreements over police officers’ handling of particular incidents, interpretation of police policies and access ELIPOC should have to resources like body-worn camera footage. 

However, a recommendation made by CNA, a nonprofit research and analysis corporation contracted by the city, said that relations between ELPD and ELIPOC should be improved. Leaders from both ELIPOC and ELPD have previously said they wish to improve relations between the two bodies. 

But recently, ELIPOC Chair Ernest Conerly wrote an email to City Manager Robert Belleman raising concerns about Interim Police Chief Jen Brown’s behavior at a meeting earlier this year. And at the most recent ELIPOC meeting, held March 5, Brown said she thinks some members of the commission “hate cops.” Meanwhile, commissioners continue to question ELPD leaders’ evaluation of the department’s own policies and willingness to hold officers accountable. 

The discussion at the March 5 meeting centered around two different incidents: A joke made by an ELPD officer to another officer that the commission views as “hate speech” and an officer’s treatment of a man who may have a disability during a traffic stop. 

ELPD and ELIPOC disagree about policy evaluation in incident where officer arrested man who may have a disability. 

ELIPOC disagreed with the outcome of a complaint investigation by ELPD. In its investigation, ELPD exonerated Officer Jacey Kingsbury, who was investigated for possibly violating the policy on interacting with people who have mental illnesses/disabilities during a traffic stop in March 2024. 

According to the complaint summary, a man was pulled over for talking on his cell phone while driving and failing to yield at a four way intersection.

Kingsbury initially believed the man was under the influence of alcohol, and said he did not provide his license, registration and insurance after being given the opportunity. The man was handcuffed and arrested within five minutes of the start of the interaction, the complaint report says. 

After being arrested and having his car impounded, the man was transported to jail. Along with traffic violations for talking on the phone while driving and failing to yield, he was charged with refusing to provide ID to a police officer, a charge that was later dropped. During the interview about the complaint, he said he could not find his ID after he was pulled over and was using a scan of his driver’s license while waiting for a replacement ID. 

Commissioners who viewed the footage said the man repeatedly asked officers to slow down during the short interaction, which they believe was a sign he may have a disability that made processing commands difficult. 

In his complaint, the man wrote that the incident ended up costing him more than $1,000 in fees. 

Commissioners were concerned because Kingsbury did not identify that the man may have a disability, something that was apparent to commissioners who reviewed the body-worn camera (BWC) footage. ELPD policy states that officers may have to extend the time spent on a call if they are addressing a person with a mental, emotional or psychological disability. Commissioners were also concerned about Kingsbury’s demeanor during the call. 

ELIPOC Vice Chair Kath Edsall noted that the commissioners who viewed the BWC footage of the incident noticed “within seconds” that the individual may have a disability that would explain the speech and processing challenges Kingsbury attributed to alcohol. The policy ELIPOC believes Kingsbury broke says officers may need to provide more time when interacting with people with disabilities “in order to reassure the person, help them sort out facts, interact with family members and others, etc,” the policy reads.

Brown said the possible disability was not immediately clear to her when she spoke to the complainant, and it took 30 to 40 minutes to identify that he may have a disability. The man declined to disclose whether or not he actually has a disability, she said. 

Commissioners passed a motion expressing disagreement with the decision to exonerate Kingsbury at the March 5 meeting.

Edsall pointed out that Kingsbury was trained in CIT (Crisis Intervention Team), which provides information on working with people who have neurodivergent conditions. Yet, she was unable to identify this individual as someone who may have a disability.

“Her contact time with that individual was less than five minutes—from the time she pulled him over until he was in handcuffs—which could be a violation,” Edsall said. “Time spent on calls may need to be extended for those who have a mental disability. Therefore, she should be held accountable.” 

Brown explained that this incident was reviewed by herself, former Interim Chief Chad Pride, a second internal investigator, the city manager, a city attorney and a psychologist—who declined to watch the video because they said it would be harmful to diagnose someone with a mental disability based solely on a video.

Edsall raised concerns about ELPD officers’ ability to identify when individuals may have disabilities. She noted that the ELIPOC members who viewed the footage don’t have special training that would help them identify disabilities.

“Three of us [commissioners], who are not trained other than as parents or people who work in the community, or have been around others with disabilities, recognized it right away,” Edsall said. “From the get-go, he had sensory issues with the light and an inability to process the information being asked of him.”

Brown noted that the department has since brought in two experts from the University of Michigan to provide autism-specific training for law enforcement officers. The report also highlights that ELPD is passing out stickers that can be placed on vehicles to identify that the driver or a passenger may have autism.  

Conerly joined the discussion and shared a personal anecdote about being pulled over by the state police and struggling to find his license or registration for 10 minutes.

“The officer stood there waiting. He was polite and patient, and reassured me that nothing was going to happen because I was nervous,” he said. “If he could wait 10 minutes, it made me think, why couldn’t she [Kingsbury] wait a bit longer?”

Conerly spoke about the broader issue of patience and dignity during traffic stops.

“Whether it was in policy or not, I hope the conversation with the officer was about patience and grace because she didn’t show any,” he said. “I can only imagine what she would have done to me if I hadn’t known where my documents were.” 

Commissioner Amanda Morgan also had concerns about Kingsbury’s demeanor.

“The soundbite for me is that she [the officer] came off as authoritarian,” Morgan said. “I heard that she presumed he had been drinking. When it became clear that didn’t happen, he was still in handcuffs. To me, it sounds like, whether it’s policy-approved or not, you can come off as authoritarian and belittling as a police officer, even if it’s policy-approved.”

Chris Root, one of the commissioners who saw the footage, noted that the individual needed more time to process the situation, and the video shows that the officer could have allowed for that. 

“She [Kingsbury] spent a great deal of time after putting him in handcuffs, chatting with other police officers on the street,” Root said. “I think the discussion with the other officers might have been longer than her encounter with the person from the community. It wasn’t that she didn’t have time or was rushed—it looked like a choice.” 

Root clarified that the commission’s role is to evaluate whether a policy was violated.

“We’re not trying to be mean if we think a policy was violated,” she said. “We’re trying to look at what the policies are, how officers are behaving, and whether they match up.” 

The conversation ended with Edsall expressing concern about a pattern of mistreatment she perceives from ELPD officers.

“The policy may say you can do something, but from a human perspective, do you need to do it?” She asked. “I’ve watched these videos on and off for three years, and time and time again, there’s impatience, rudeness and disrespect for the citizens of East Lansing. It’s not all the officers, but there is a trend, and I want to make you aware that this is happening.”

ELPD finds policy violation in comment made by officer that ELIPOC deemed as “hate speech.”

Also at the March 5 meeting, ELIPOC discussed the outcome of an internal complaint that ELIPOC motioned to file at a meeting last year.

The complaint originates from September 2024, when the commission was reviewing BWC footage of ELPD responding to a house alarm that was accidentally triggered. 

ELIPOC did not file a complaint related to the handling of the alarm call. However, while reviewing that footage, commissioners stumbled upon video of Officer Katey Harrison making a joke to Officer Jose Viera that the commission referred to as “hate speech” in its complaint.

“You can’t even read a license plate right,” Harrison said to Viera. “It’s okay, English is your second language, it’s not your fault.”

ELIPOC filed a complaint against Harrison at its September meeting, after hearing the comment. 

ELPD found Harrison did break policy, and she received “verbal coaching” from Pride as a consequence. After the incident, Pride also sent an email that “reminded all sworn personnel to be cognizant of what is said when BWC’s are recording,” according to the complaint summary.

During an interview for the investigation, Viera defended Harrison, saying he was not offended by the comment and does not feel he has been discriminated against as an ELPD officer. He also said he often jokes with his peers about English being his second language. 

During the investigation, Harrison claimed the commission was wrong in calling banter among colleagues hate speech, which she described as “disgusting and slanderous.”

“This advisory board has proven its sole purpose is a cop-hating agenda and when it’s [sic] shows that we as officer[s] practice fair and equitable policing such as that alarm call… then the advisory refuses to respect that and instead seeks to attack another officer,” Harrison said, according to the investigation report.

Conerly started the discussion, “I feel like we’ve been asking this question for a long time—why do your officers feel we are cop-hating just because we ask questions?”

“There is not a consensus that the entire commission is cop-hating,” Brown responded. “There is a belief among our officers—including myself—that there are some individuals on this commission who strongly dislike the police.”

Conerly stated that there’s a difference between private and public settings. He said that unprofessional cultural humor is not appropriate in workplace settings, including for law enforcement officers. 

“I’m a Black man in charge of a school with a majority white staff,” he said. “There is no way I’m going to build resilience to do my job if one of them remotely references anything derogatory towards me. That’s building Stockholm syndrome—having sympathy for your abuser. Do you think inappropriate cultural humor is what you want your officers to use to do their job?”

“Culturally inappropriate behavior is not acceptable in any circumstance,” Brown answered.

Conerly posed the question, “If the leadership believes this is a cop-hating organization, how could ELIPOC reasonably believe there will ever be an opportunity for trust and accountability?”

“When I have a conversation with the department, I’m very careful about the language I select. I say there are individuals on this commission who care about making the department a better place,” Brown responded. “That doesn’t include everyone at this table, but it’s important for our officers to recognize there are people here who are open-minded. But there are individuals sitting at this table who do hate cops.”

Morgan interjected, saying that commissioners who are more critical of the police are not less caring about the community. She also said racial bias is baked into Brown’s perspective. 

“That was the whitest statement I have ever heard,” she said. “And I expect nothing less from the police because the police are a white system. Making fun of people for their language, intellect, or disability is a white thing. I can say that out loud—clearly, you can’t.”

Conerly again addressed one portion of the complaint summary where Viera said humor can be a way to “build resilience in the face of hardship.” Conerly said many jobs outside of law enforcement can be traumatizing but using inappropriate humor to cope is not acceptable in a workplace setting. 

“In the eight years I’ve been a teacher, I’ve been hit, kicked, attacked by parents, been in 19 lockdowns where my kids couldn’t move and had to hide under tables, experienced break-ins at the school, faced several storm warnings, visited homes of my students, witnessed horrible things happen to them, done virtual learning, but nobody seems to think my job is dangerous,” Conerly said.

Conerly went on to say that it does not make commissioners “cop haters” if they are critical of instances involving ELPD. 

“It doesn’t make us cop haters when we push back on these same narratives,” he said. “We can’t live in a community where the leader of our police department thinks we have cop haters on the commission—that is unsafe. I am a Black man in this community, and people’s lives are at stake because of the work we do. If folks are around here thinking that I’m a cop hater, that’s inappropriate.”